You Think Apartments Are a Safe Investment?
In this episode of Lessons Learned, Meg Epstein pulls back the curtain on what ground-up development really looks like when the wheels come off.
A developer she invested with burned $1,000,000 on plans that didn’t pencil… and when the deal started falling apart, it escalated fast: subpoenas, legal threats, and a moment where it felt like everything she’d built could get wiped out overnight.
Meg shares how she survived it, what she changed, and the business model she rebuilt afterward, including why chasing the “institutional” path can be a trap, why niche strategies win, and what it takes to keep your real estate business alive through a down cycle.
Get commercial real estate coaching, courses, and community to jumpstart your investment journey over at CRE Central: www.crecentral.com
Key Takeaways:
Became a developer in crisis: Meg started as a high‑end residential project manager and was forced to become a developer when a partner burned through about $1M on unfeasible plans; she took over to protect investors.
Sees value others miss: She identified under‑loved Nashville locations (riverfront, Gulch‑adjacent) early and was willing to buy where locals thought she was “overpaying,” which later proved very successful.
Capital without a rich network: With no wealthy friends/family, she raised ~$5–6M for her first deal by cold‑calling and using CCIM directories and BiggerPockets—showing the importance of research, persistence, and real phone calls.
Sunk costs and pivots: Scrapping expensive concrete plans, switching to cheaper stick‑over‑podium, cutting ~25% of the budget, and waiving her own developer fee turned a near‑disaster into a profitable condo project.
Cycles and business model shift: The frothy early‑2022 boom (big flips, many employees) was followed by a painful downturn when rates spiked and equity dried up. That pushed her toward leaner teams, fewer project types, and more long‑term, cash‑flowing/hold strategies.
Niching and design differentiation: Her “big unlock” is focusing on niches (short‑term‑rentable condos/flexible living, select industrial) and distinct but cost‑disciplined design (landscaping, thoughtful finishes, no trendy white‑box commodity).
Leadership lessons: The hardest part was people and overhead, not buildings—layoffs, departures, and restructuring. Out of that came a small, high‑caliber, focused team model.
Current focus – Modernist: She’s now doubling down on flexible living condos (Modernist) that owners can use personally and also rent out for income—an institutional version of how she once Airbnb’d her own apartment to fund her start
About Your Host:
Tyler Cauble, Founder & President of The Cauble Group, is a commercial real estate broker and investor based in East Nashville. He’s the best selling author of Open for Business: The Insider’s Guide to Leasing Commercial Real Estate and has focused his career on serving commercial real estate investors.
Episode Transcript:
Speaker 1 0:00
It wasn't even my idea. The idea of wasting all that money on plans was like, unfathomable to me. I was just like, Oh, we're friendly, like, so successful after all this hard work. It's like, this is a bubble Meg, that was a tough lesson to learn, but I literally am just going back to where I started. And if I just leaned into that and focused on it the last decade, I'd probably be like, selling my brand to Hilton or something.
Tyler Cauble 0:22
One day, a guy shows up at Meg Epstein's door. He's not a tenant, he's not a lender, and he's not an inspector. He's there to subpoena her because a developer that she invested with decided to come after her when the deal started falling apart. Now here's the scary part, Meg didn't start her career as a developer. She had to become one mid crisis, because that was the only way she was going to survive this deal. What do you do when a project goes from this is really exciting to we might have to pack up and move to Mexico, babe. And how do you build a real estate business that can actually take hits like that without wiping you out today, on lessons learned Meg breaks down the exact decisions she made when everything went sideways and the business model that she rebuilt afterwards.
Tyler Cauble 1:13
Meg, take us back to before your professional life. What was the foundation of Meg Epstein,
Speaker 1 1:21
yes, I grew up in Sacramento, so Nashville was kind of a lot like that type of city when I moved here, kind of like a, you know, like a, not a huge city, but just kind of more of a, it was a nice place to grow up. I grew up there and I went to public school the whole time. My parents were divorced and I went back and forth between them, between and then my mom moved to LA when we were 10, because she was dating an actor that was 25 years younger than her. So I had a very unconventional, you know, not like the traditional upbringing, kind of like an American family. When I moved to LA, that's when we lived near UCLA, and my mom used to take me around Bel Air and Beverly Hills and show me all the pretty houses and everything. And that was kind of when I first got started, like, interested in real estate. And I did get so if I look at like, what fundamentally shaped me this, my board brought this up last week when they were in town. They were like, You never talk about your car accident from high school. And I was like, yeah, it was like, 20 years ago, but it really was fundamental. I was I went under a semi hay truck when I was 16, and, you know, was in a coma, and it was probably had five or 10 surgeries over the course of high school, and it really shaped me. I was, like, really into Student Government. And I was like, kind of, you know, like, goody, goody. And I had to, you know, drop, like, basically, had to skip a semester of school, did homecoming, and my face was like, so shut it was, like, this big thing, but I actually learned a lot from it, and I think it forced me to grow up and become really business minded, because I had to get an account, you know, I had to work with an insurance the insurance company, and I went through a lawsuit with them, and did a big mediation, and had an accountant, and, you know, didn't get a lot of money, but got a settlement, and had to manage it when I was very young. And I was managing all my own doctor's appointments when I was 16. And so it really forced me to grow up quickly, I think, and mature. And then I the only one of the only schools I applied to was UCLA, because it was the one that I liked going to when I was and I went there. So it was a really great foundation, I think for me, and I would have, I'm much more of a finance mind. But when I graduated, it was 2008 so it was a horrible time to go into finance. So I went into building those homes in Bel Air and Beverly Hills that I always looked at when I was 10. So that was the first start of me and construct. And then I went in, you know, construction, basically. So I was a project manager on a job site.
Tyler Cauble 4:03
So how did you go from jumping into UCLA to jumping into project management?
Speaker 1 4:08
I literally would run, I would run around campus and look at the pretty houses, and got a job from calling on the construction companies that were building the homes. These were, like, you know, $50 million homes. They weren't like anything normal. And so I did that for five, you know, five or six years in California before I moved to Nashville. So it was all very high end homes, actually, much harder than what I do now, because you have to navigate insanely rich people and really complex residences that often take, you know, seven, eight years to build.
Tyler Cauble 4:44
So, yeah, those are quite, quite the custom
Unknown Speaker 4:46
homes. Yeah, that was kind of how I started.
Tyler Cauble 4:48
So you land in Nashville in 2016 what was it that you saw that the locals hadn't quite caught on to yet, especially around the river Eighth Avenue, where you're building a lot of your projects today?
Speaker 1 4:59
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Eighth Avenue was where, I mean, the first thing was the river, because I moved from San Francisco, and I remember being like, oh, there's no cool condos on the river or anything like, I would want to live on the water. And everyone was sort of like, why would you want to be on the water here? It was, like, considered, like, you know, like, industrial, like, almost gross. And I just thought that's weird, like, especially with Austin already having have all their, like, rowing and, you know, cool vibe. So I was literally on a run and found one of my first sites because it was on the river and it was for sale by owner. I was like, Oh, that looks like a great location. It's 10 blocks from Broadway, and it took me years to get that one across the line, because people were like, it's next to a jail. And I'm like, not really, it's not really a jail. I'm like, it's on the water, you know. And they're like, it's in this horrible area of town. I'm like, you can walk to Broadway and you're on the water. Like, I don't know what you mean, you know. I mean, it was so obvious to me, but people even still consider Germantown kind of, like, not super nice. Then, you know, it was just sort of up and coming, and now it's obviously like million dollar, you know, $2 million homes. So that was one area in the Gulch. I remember go, I you know, Gulch adjacent is where I did my first project. It was right, kind of overlooking the Gulch. But the Gulch had it happened. It wasn't like, I think 1212, was there, but nothing like it is today. To me, it was really obvious. I think I bought my first acre there for like, three, five or something, and they were like, this California girl's coming in and overpaying. And like, hahaha. I look back, I'm like, dang, I wish I would have bought everything. So that was just an easy play that was just brought to me by a local broker and a partner that I that I had, and so I didn't really know that it was going to be such a cool area. And then I just kind of kept going. And then the neighbor was like, you know, I just got to know the neighbors and one more parcel at a time. And now I'm on my wet fifth parcel, so on that street.
Tyler Cauble 7:00
So who did who did you have to become, or what did you have to change in order for you to go from project manager on these $50 million houses to Meg's, the developer?
Speaker 1 7:13
Yeah, I think the finance side was a big thing. So I took all the CCIM courses, and that really gave me a foundation. Like the one thing that probably has come up for me most in my career is that I have mainly institutional investors, so public or private equity, lot of people, like, based in New York, and all of these people go down the same track of, like, investment banking at Goldman or something, and then they go into, you know, they either have an MBA or something like that. And I just didn't, I grew up like, literally, on job sites, so I've always sort of had to, I have a strong financial mind, but I've always had to kind of rely on others for the modeling and whatnot. But the CCIM courses at least gave me the fundamentals, so I knew what, like a cap rate was, and you know what the basics were. So that was something that's super integral to my job, is, like the finance side. So I didn't have that before. Unfortunately, I didn't really learn anything at UCLA that I actually applied to my I get all these, like, mentees, and I'm like, I'm like, they're so stressed out about college. I'm like, I wouldn't worry about it, like,
Tyler Cauble 8:27
so it's not gonna help you out too much.
Speaker 1 8:29
I don't think, I mean, I think an MBA would have been handy if I went back, but, yeah,
Tyler Cauble 8:34
what was it like? I mean, because I do mostly friends and family raises, right? Our average investor places $100,000 with us. How do you go about pitching, especially for your first deal to a REIT or a private equity fund or some, some of these big, big wig New Yorkers?
Speaker 1 8:51
Unfortunately, I just didn't have a lot of friends and family like that. Like that is the traditional route, and there's pluses and minuses of both. It's a lot more work, it feels like, but your terms are probably a lot better. I just didn't. My first project needed $5 million and I grew up in Sacramento, like I didn't have any money, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't know people like that and belong to a country club like so I just didn't know what else to do. I literally went online and tried to navigate. I didn't really know the difference between a general partner or a limited partner, and all the things I know now, I just sort of was like, who would invest in real estate? The first investor was from the CCIM directory. And I just, I mean, I went on bigger pockets. Was one I posted, raised some money that way. I posted on CC im, and the first guy was an individual that I literally just got off the phone with 10 years later, like, on my way over here, that had a fund out of Michigan. But it was flexible. It wasn't like a New York like, like I've worked with more. Our traditional institutional investors now, but he basically syndicated money from people like that, and he would place the capital for them. And so I happened to get him, and he had, you know, he was able to place like five or 6 million, I think, in our first deal. So I just talked to like 100 people, and he that was the first and then when you even though I hadn't round tripped, I think the timing was just perfect, because there were so many groups trying to get into Nashville, and it was still such a good old boys club. So you know, they weren't going to call like some developer in Belle Meade and give them money if they were an institutional investor, but I was cold calling them. So that's kind of how I bridge the gap. But you know, it's not, it's nice. You have a lot. We have one person to answer to, but usually they're a lot more sophisticated. And, you know, your terms, probably earning is great, but you can scale faster. So it's, it's plus and minus. I mean, I, you know, I have both. It's kind of, it's kind of different
Tyler Cauble 10:55
ground up development has a lot of challenges, you know. I mean, it's, it's certainly not the easiest path to take. And on that first deal, you hit quite the road bump, right? You scrapped your concrete plan. You redesigned it to stick over podium. I mean, this is, you know, not quite mid project, but you're pretty deep into it. What was, what was going on in the project at that time, and why did you decide to make that switch?
Speaker 1 11:20
Well, I originally, I never really wanted to be a developer. Actually, my husband worked for a developer out of college, and he was like, he's an investor, and he got out of development because he was like, This is so hard. Like, development is not for the faint of heart. I've said this 1000 times. It's just so hard. Like, it just there's 1000 things you have to do to do a whole project right, and any of those can go wrong, and they're all very important. So I SCRA so I was never the developer. I actually called that for sale by owner. Sign that guy was a developer, according to him, I raised a million dollars on bigger pockets for him, and I was his financial partner, and he basically spent that money on plans that were not feasible. I think looking back, I think we would have had to sell them for $600 a foot or something, which is like laughable now, because it's probably 1000 but, but it just wouldn't pencil with the design that he had. He designed like 20 units in concrete, because it was a super small site, and it just didn't work. And he spent all this money with fancy architects and it didn't work. So basically, I had my money and it was spent on architecture fees that were just going to get scrapped. It wasn't even my idea. The idea of wasting all that money on plans was, like unfathomable to me. I had to really get into crisis mode and be in a very, very low place, take a step back. And actually got advice from my general contractor, who was like, you know, I think you just need to scrap these plans. And like, to me, a million dollars, was like, I mean, it's so a lot of money, but it was like, my, you know what? I mean, like, I didn't have any money, so I was, like, I just wasted a million dollars of someone's money that, you know, and not me, it was, it was the partner, but for my sake, it was my investors, right? And so the GC was also a builder, and came up with a plan for a different type of construction that did work and got a lot more units and was shorter but fatter and was cheaper. So that's kind of like, you know, being pushed to the brink and thinking of something totally insane, like just wasting all the money you'd spent because, because I had probably spent six or eight months trying to find equity for this concrete deal. So it was really rough, but it ended up being a total home run. So in the end,
Tyler Cauble 13:47
how did, how did the pro forma shake out on that one? Like, what was your original budget and how did it actually shape out?
Speaker 1 13:54
Oh, God, I can't remember. I was probably, I mean, it's small. It was like 15, 20 million, maybe, I think the original budget was probably 22 and we had to sell each unit for a million dollars, which would not be any stretch of the imagination, you know, anytime in the last couple years. But then there was a penitentiary. I was like, I don't really see it, but it was right there. It was across the street. They demolished it. This was before the sound stadium and all these things, right? So it was kind of that weird in between Germantown and downtown. We probably cut 25% of the budget. I also didn't take a developer fee, for example, like, I just did this all for free, because I was like, up the creek. And then, think we originally proformed, selling for 550 a foot or something, we ended up at 615 or something, 620 but, you know, they, they also sold it out in like two weeks. And I was really pissed about that, because I was like, clearly,
Tyler Cauble 14:51
these are we underpriced,
Speaker 1 14:54
like, but honestly, I was just so happy to make a profit. You know, I think we made like. Million dollars on the deal, and everybody got it, you know, it was great for the agony. There were a million other things that I wasn't a developer. I didn't know how to do that. I had to get rid of that partner, bought him out, and then had to just figure it out with the builder, architect, who really helped me, you know, develop, like I didn't know how to set up, you know, do all that stuff. So it was sort of out of need, but that's kind of where I learned. And thankfully, the market wasn't like on the way down, it was on the way up. So forgiving.
Tyler Cauble 15:30
The last 10 years have really been a roller coaster ride in commercial real estate, but especially for development, right? I mean, you take 2016 to 2025 today. I mean, you've had some amazing years and some really bad years. Not you specifically, but everybody, no, everybody, definitely, everybody has so. So tell us. Tell us about a year where you feel like everything just went right. It was a great year. And then tell us about a year where it felt like you couldn't do anything right.
Speaker 1 15:56
The ladders, definitely last year, the year before that beginning, it's finally starting to go right now this year, but the last three years have been really rough. I would call 2022 probably the frothy, like the most fun frothy. I had like 22 employees, which was a total mistake, but I had all these employees. We were throwing parties. I mean, we had flipped a deal to an institutional investor that I'd bought a month before for like, 10x I mean, made exited a lot pre sold all my industrial portfolio before it was even leased. I was just like, Oh, we're friendly, like, so successful after all this hard work, it's like, this is a bubble. Meg, like, this is my first bubble. And I was like, thankfully, I, you know, did exit a lot and sold a lot, but it was like, it felt like very PG version of Wolf, of Wall Street, or something just like fun. I want Entrepreneur of the Year. It was just like, on cloud nine and then mid 22 I think at the end, we were building a whole portfolio. I had tons of employees, all this overhead, and then the music just stopped. And you're like, where did, like, the equity just dried up, like, construction stopped, yeah,
Tyler Cauble 17:13
September of 22 is when interest rates started spiking, yeah
Speaker 1 17:17
and no. And then just everything we had in the portfolio, like, literally didn't work. And I had spent, you know, at least a half a million dollars in people's time building a pipeline. So it was just, it was really rough, yeah, 20 the beginning of 22 was really fun, and it was a really good couple years, you know. And thankfully, like I said, in condos you exit, we pre sold a lot of our industrial we exited, we had a crazy return. So thankfully, I had gotten out of quite a few of the assets and time, which is more than a lot of people can say, just because it was so frothy. But I for sure, you know, I much, I've definitely learned lessons after the last couple of years, for sure.
Tyler Cauble 17:57
Yeah, I mean, that's one of those instances, for sure, where the build to sell model worked really well in your
Speaker 1 18:06
favor, if you have can make the timing work, yeah, right.
Tyler Cauble 18:09
It can also be incredibly risky, because you have to make sure that when you are delivering these units, that there are people that want and can buy. So talk to me about the build to sell versus built to hold why? Why do you lean more on the sell side? And have you considered more of the hold side?
Speaker 1 18:24
I definitely have opportunity zone legislation is great, because you have to hold that assets for 10 years, since it's so much work to do a development, which is what something I think a lot more about now. Like when I was younger, I was working 100 hours a week. So was my husband on his ventures, like we were just that's what we were doing. And it was like, I want to do every deal I can, and I love all this. You know, I'm so excited, and I love Nashville, but now I'm very selective about if I'm going to take on a project, especially the size. Like for me, if I'm doing a $20 million project, it's pretty much the same amount of work as $100 million project, if not more. So I'm a lot more selective now, because it's so much work, and then you sell it, and you kind of like, okay, great, I made money, but there's no, I don't have a job now, like, I have to go eat what you kill again, right? So opportunity zone legislation is great, because you hold those for 10 years, and in Nashville, like, even, like, the opposition deals I have now, like, are just continuing to appreciate, even though the multifamily market sucks, it's still, in 10 years, we'll be fine. You know, it's going to be lumpy, but you will be fine on the disposition, because it's 10 years long. I think the key now, and I'm also focused on a business model that is more cash flowing and portfolio based. And the only thing I do on a merchant build model now is condos, because you make so much more on a project basis. Or I do than stabilizing an industrial asset and selling it, or stabilizing a multi family asset and selling it, because the merchant build model is a bit of a hamster wheel.
Tyler Cauble 19:58
Yeah, as soon as you sell the. Project. It's all right, we got to get back on to the next one, or we're going to run out of cash again, right?
Speaker 1 20:06
And that's one thing where, looking back, I really just, I love having the team I have now, which is much leaner, because it just gives me a lot more choices. Like when you have a huge team and you're burning quarter million dollars a month, like you have to do. You have to have fees, and it's just not what I want to do. You know, you've
Tyler Cauble 20:27
said before that the big unlock for you was getting into the niches, right? Absolutely, short term rentals, condos, of course, industrial, outdoor storage, things like that. I mean, what was the what was the data point that you found, or what was the deal where you said, Let's go repeat this everywhere.
Speaker 1 20:47
It's sort of funny, because my very first completed project was called a loom, which was simultaneously happening with the riverfront one. These were these condos that I could short term rent, and that model is completely evolved, that the whole Airbnb market has evolved over the last decade. It's become more institutional and whatnot, but I have essentially now gone back to exactly where I started 10 years ago. And it's hilarious, because my board is always like, why don't you just focus on that thing that you were like, like, unicorn successful at. And I was just like, oh, because it's not institutional and, like, I have public REIT investors now. And like, you know, I want to do multifamily. It's like, no, everybody wants to do multifamily. That's why multifamily supply is giving four months concessions, and it's going to take years to absorb in Nashville now. Like, and so that was a tough lesson to learn, but I literally am just going back to where I started. And if I just leaned into that and focused on it the last decade, I'd probably be like, selling my brand to Hilton or something, but I'm basically doing that now, having learned those lessons of focusing on those niches, right? And everybody has one. You've done it in the retail space, like people do car washes. You've turned retail into car washes. Like, those are the niches where the real yield is there. And I can tell you, I've developed a million square feet of industrial like, I'm not differentiating myself, unless you're a huge you know, I'm just competing with the prologises of the world that I'm not offering anything. It's not like, if I put, you know, cool greenery or something on my industrial buildings that they're gonna it's like, it's a commoditized product. So you really have to find your own niche, I think, and lean into it. And kind of look,
Tyler Cauble 22:30
you've done a phenomenal job of differentiating your product and making sure that your condos, your projects, are not just the next box, right? What are, what are two to three non negotiables for you on the design side that don't hurt your financing, because that can be a tricky, you know, balance to strike. Of I want to be as creative and cool as possible, but what's going to make sure that I get the institutional guys who typically aren't creative on board?
Speaker 1 22:59
It depends, like, the condos, you have a little more creativity, because they are the less institutional investors. I mean, vines are one that I insist on, like, landscaping. Like, that's not a huge nobody's going to be upset about that. And it's a low budget line item, and I always have to, like, bang my head against the wall with the GC and the architect to make sure there's enough landscaping, but I think landscaping goes a long way. Kind of bringing that onside in is just, I think the architecture, like I just can't in my soul will never build, the the you know, that product that's everywhere I just can't. And I think that I've proven enough to where our our returns give enough out alpha or differentiate enough that, at least to a buyer, it matters like we sold hive in a really tough market. That was our last condo building we completed. Was beginning of 23 there was no commercial debt. Interest rates were rising, people. It was just like the beginning of this recession. And anyways, it was still a seedy neighborhood, and people, we sold out, you know. And I think that has to do with just decent architecture, but also weighing, you know, I have been to b, r, k ings office, who's, like, probably the most visionary architect in the world at the moment, when I've done exercises with him. The reality is, is, like, that stuff just doesn't work right, right for anything I'm going to build. So I have to do it in a stick over podium product, which is, like, economical. And so I just really look for finishes, they're unique, or doing something a different way. I stay away from trends. That's the first thing. I really add a lot of landscaping, and then I try to get ideas and things that are being done in like Austin or LA, and I bring my architect in from LA to kind of look and go, Okay, what? What are people not thinking about here that isn't going to cost anymore, you know, like, a lot of times people just go with, like, white subway tile. And you don't, you know, it doesn't cost anymore. Like, change the color or set it differently, you know, yeah, you don't.
Tyler Cauble 25:02
You don't want to paint every building white with black trim. No, no, that's not gonna get you too far. No.
Speaker 1 25:09
I mean, people do anyways. I think there's some really cool design. You know, it's gotten way better since I got here. So East Nashville is really cool. There's some amazing talent in town now. But yeah,
Tyler Cauble 25:20
that's so true. I mean, Nashville, 1520, years, everything was the same. Yeah, there was no differentiation whatsoever. And I think that adds such a deeper level of character to these neighborhoods, especially for a developer like you, right? Because you've got these pockets that you're all in on, especially every project that you do positively impacts the next project that you do, right? So you want to continue to build the depth of the neighborhood, you know. Okay, you said that being different gets calls returned, and we've been talking and hammering in on this differentiation. What do you think it is that that you do differently when you're cold calling these investors and setting up that first meeting that helps turn that into a long term relationship.
Speaker 1 26:04
I don't think people call anyone anymore. I make fun of my finance guy because he's like, I don't know whatever generation it is below millennial, but he, you know, he's like, Well, I emailed him and I was like, in the 90s, we used to call it like you dial someone picks up on the other end and you talk to them, yeah, very novelty. I know, I actually just don't think people reach out. And I'm not talking about, like, AI emails, because I get a million of those, or LinkedIn blast message. I mean, like doing a ton of research, 10s of hours of research. I mean, probably less now, with AI, you could do use AI. I'm just saying when I started, there was an AI. But could use AI? Really get your pointed list of the people that are aligned with your you know, whatever your niche is, or whatever you're trying to do, and reach out with them, with, like, a true story or something. Because I get reached out to all the time, and if some mentee or someone actually, like, did some they're not like, Hey, can I take 10 minutes to pick your brain? Or, you know, take Can we meet for coffee for 30 minutes? I want to hear about how you got started. And it's like, if you went on my website for five minutes, you could see that I've recorded 25 podcasts about how I got started, and you're wasting my time, like, you know. So I really think just putting in the research in time to identify who would be your ideal investor, and, you know, fostering that relationship. Reaching out could be usually, if someone doesn't like I could probably reach out to someone between five and 10 times before they'll actually reply, unless they're like, no, not interested, then I take them off the list. But like, can, you know, it could take months and months and months just to get them to reply, and then offering them something like, you know, I think for John, my first investor, it was like, listen, like, Nashville's a really cool up and coming market. You should really get to know about it. I'm happy to just take you around town and, like, show you. And he was like, Oh, I'll get on my plane and, like, check it out. You know what I mean. So it was like, thinking of what you can do for them. And I just don't think people like especially younger people, really want to do that much work. And I think people are interiorized into their telephones, and they don't, you know, into their screens, and they don't pick up the phone or cold outreach to enough people. I mean, I have to call 1000s and 1000s of people you know to get my deals done, especially these days, it's just a numbers game. At some point, I
Tyler Cauble 28:25
think it's so important to let that settle in, right? Because you've done several 100 million dollars for the projects, and you're still sitting there making the calls and following up five to 10 times to make it happen like that's what it takes. And there's so many people that aren't willing to put that work
Speaker 1 28:40
in today, right? And it wasn't that much work, frankly, a couple years ago, it does get easier and easier, and you get, you know, I've, I've done five projects with my first investor, so it gets easier and easier, but then the market turned and it that got harder and harder, and everybody stopped placing capital. So I had to be even more creative about where I was going to get it. And so ideally, going forward, it's getting easier. I am trying to work. One thing that I have learned through this last cycle that I think is important for any entrepreneur to know is that that whole focus idea, when I, you know, I was very focused on Nashville, which was great, but I was very opportunistic. I did an office building, I did multifamily, I've done opzone, I've done condos, and really now I'm only doing two things over and over and over again in different markets, which can be done in a program with like, one larger investor that like will give me every you know, one debt and equity investor, ideally. So that's what I'm shooting for now, because it is so much work to foster those relationships and find them if you don't have I mean, some people are just like Lucky, and they're, you know, their best friend they grew up with. Dad is a billionaire, and, you know, we'll back them
Tyler Cauble 29:50
or something. But wouldn't that be nice? It
Speaker 1 29:53
happened. Some of the deals I see get done in this town blow my mind.
Tyler Cauble 29:56
So, yeah, would you have more money than. Sense, yeah, the performance don't really matter.
Speaker 1 30:02
Yeah, anything, yeah.
Tyler Cauble 30:06
Looking back on your career so far a decade, I'm sure you've had to have at least one, maybe multiple, moments that stick out where it said, oh shit, things are going wrong, you know, like, Hey babe, let's pack up and move to Mexico. I think this is done. Yeah, play those moments. What stands out for you?
Speaker 1 30:25
Well, on that first project, I have spoken about that quite a bit, so I can skip that one. But on the, you know, on the riverfront project, when the developer that I had invested in tried to come after me because I couldn't get it, because I told him, I'm like, I'm just going to take over. I'll buy you out. But I couldn't buy him out in the five months that I wanted to, I think he he was trying to, like, subpoena me for, you know, he was like, gonna start the legal process. And I was like, You took my money anyways. So, you know, there's someone at the door being like, are you Meg Epstein? And I'm like, no, let me get her. No, she's not here right now. Bam. Like, I was like, Oh my God. And I remember when I I had a really wealthy friend in Beverly Hills, like, all like the, anyways, the people I used to build houses for would be like, never say that the person's here, you know, never go get the person at the door, because their business people are always getting subpoenaed or whatever. So I remember when that happened, I was just like, tariff, like, now it's like, I have, you know, 40 different attorneys for everything. I know how the legal process works. I've had to, you know, handle lawsuits against people, mainly, but I've settled things like, it's no big deal. Like, if someone tried to sue me, I'd be like, okay, cool. Like, whatever. But Ben, I like getting someone to come to my door, and I was like, and this was a total joke. He was the one that I had given money to, but I was just like. I was like, I'm gonna get arrested. You know what I mean? Like, what am I doing? I'm in way over my head. That was like, a for sure, freak out, but it was just because I didn't, you know, like I said, I'm so hardened from then, that was in the beginning, and we had to totally step outside the box and redesign the project, as I mentioned. More relevant, you know, I think, or more recently, I think when you know that, when the market did start to change, and I had all this overhead, and I really had to look at what I wanted to do the next couple years, like how I wanted my company this next cycle, what I wanted to set up my company to be, but I was burning through. I mean, I had so many people working for me, and that depended on me. And frankly, like, I think the hardest part about this last cycle was the people aspect. It wasn't necessarily the capital markets, but it was just how I'd poured so much into the personnel and did all these retreats and all these things. And frankly, like, just was not worth it, and and so. So that was a really gut wrenching feeling I had, you know, I had to let some really key people go. A few other people quit that I was really surprised about. But all I can say is, in those extreme moments of absolute like, where you're like, I kind of want to fold up, you know? I mean, there was probably three moments like that in the history of my company. One of them was then when people were like, quitting. I'm like, I've been, you know, I'm like, I've been paying out of my own pocket to keep everybody, you know, to keep the lights on. When the market stopped and people were like, leaving, you know, it just was a horrible, horrible time. And just the like, the personnel issues I've dealt with, with people that I thought I trusted, and the disloyalty that was the hardest part. But what I found in those scenarios where I literally was like, I called my mentor, Sherry deutschman, and I was like, Sherry, like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I think I should just this isn't worth it. Like, I didn't have any kids at the time. I'm like, I've been this my whole life. But the good news was, is that, like, those are the times when I, like, really fix you, really grow during those times. Just like that first deal I had to, like, re become a developer overnight to save my million dollars. And that wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have figured that out if everything had gone fine, and I wouldn't have made that huge return, because I would have been partnered with some idiot, and I never would have learned myself, you know, like, how to be a developer and get to that extreme, uncomfortable spot that forces you to pull off like a frickin Hail Mary. Because when you get complacent and you're like, I was in 22 you make mistakes, and now, having been in those gut wrenching situations, I don't make the same mistakes. You know what I mean? I don't make mistakes like that anymore. I just don't like it's pierced into your gut and mind that you can't do. Something like that again. And so I look at it as like a growing opportunity. This last time, I restructured my whole company. I restructured how we work, the type of people I hire, assassins, only small team. Everyone gets paid a lot more with a lot less people. We're laser focused, you know, no frothiness, like, it's just a different model, and it's so much better. I'm so much happier, but I wouldn't have gotten there if it kept being like, you know, sunshine and roses and everyone was just throwing money at us all the time. So, you know, but, yeah, those are the moments that really make you an entrepreneur, right?
Tyler Cauble 35:40
That's yeah. I mean, that's, unfortunately, when you own the business, you only get to deal with the problems, right? Because if everybody else could solve it, it's not coming to you, right? And so it's usually the thing that no one else can solve, and you're either cut out for that or you're not.
Speaker 1 35:58
It's a very and you know what? It's fine if you aren't, like, I try to tell people that, like, I get a lot of people coming out of college, oh, they want to be a developer. And I, you know, I'm like, okay, but it's not for everybody, which is fine, you know what I mean, and it's one of the reasons I waited so long to have children. I mean, there's no way I could have had babies in the beginning of my company. I would have had to do one or the other. So I chose to, you know, have four kids in two years, because we started later. But like, it's you they're huge sacrifices to be an entrepreneur, for sure. But on the other hand, now I have an incredible life. I'm still very young to be where I'm at and having, you know, not to answer to anyone, and have the flexibility to go work in Europe for the summer, you know, live where we live and all the opportunities we have is like, it's really unbeatable. But no, it's not for everybody.
Tyler Cauble 36:53
Meg, for those listening that want to learn more about your way this project modernist or follow your journey. Where can they find you?
Speaker 1 37:01
LinkedIn is great. I do you know, my assistant checks the messages we try to update on modernist. There's an Instagram for it. It's what we're really focused on and excited about. We've launched this new brand that actually is so near and dear to me, not just because it was my first project, but also because when I was an entrepreneur and I didn't have any money, I airbnbed out my own apartment in San Francisco illegally in 2010 or something, 2012 and I was able to start my company because I could pay my rent by Airbnb in my apartment. And so it's hilarious to me how I just go full circle. And if I had not gotten distracted, I probably would be a lot farther with it. But now, you know, we're we broke ground on our fourth and fifth. You know, flexible living is what we're calling it, condos that allow you to make income on them when you're not using them, and very excited about it. So yeah, follow along for the journey. We'll do posts on LinkedIn, Instagram, CA, South development, Instagram and LinkedIn, that's great. Yeah. Thank you. Meg, thank you. You.